Wednesday, 19 March, 2008
http://news.sbs.com.au/dateline//interview_with_david_kilgour_543039
Tonight, George Negus interviews Candian human rights lawyer and
former member of parliament David Kilgour about the unrest in
Tibet.
Have Your Say: How
should the world respond to China's crackdown on protestors in
Tibet?
TRANSCRIPT (Watch a Video)
David Kilgour is a former Canadian MP with an international name on the issue
of human rights abuse, including by the Chinese Government. Interestingly, he
had contact with Australian PM Kevin Rudd in his old Opposition role as shadow
foreign minister. In an email to Kilgour, he vowed to "rigorously address human
rights abuses in China." This week, David Kilgour urged the Mandarin-speaking Mr
Rudd to get a lot tougher with the Chinese. George Negus talked with him earlier
today from Ottawa.
GEORGE NEGUS: David Kilgour, thanks very much
for your time. Could I begin by talking to you about a letter or an email that
Kevin Rudd, our current PM, sent you as a result of meeting you, as I understand
it, expressing his commitment, vowing vigorously to address human rights in
China. Can you tell us how that came about that an Australian would-be PM found
himself talking to you, a human rights lawyer, about this issue?
DAVID KILGOUR, FORMER CANADIAN MP AND HUMAN RIGHTS LAWYER:
Well, actually, Edward McMillan-Scott, a member of the European Parliament, in
fact a vice-president and I met with him when he was actually wasn't even the
Leader of the Opposition at that point, but he showed great interest in this
matter, Falun Gong, and he sent an email after that and then there was a
subsequent letter that he sent to me expressing great concern about human rights
in China and I was very encouraged by that.
GEORGE NEGUS:
You actually said when the trouble broke out in Tibet earlier this week that you
thought he should act on his commitment to address human rights abuses in China.
Could I read to you what he's said, for your reaction? He said, "These most
recent developments in Tibet are disturbing. I would call upon the Chinese
authorities to exercise restraint." Which is a bit like hitting them with a
feather, if you ask me, is that good enough? Do you think that's enough for an
Australian Prime Minister who is a Mandarin speaker, by the way, in his reaction
to Chinese behaviour in Tibet at the moment?
DAVID KILGOUR:
Well, he also understands the human rights record of the party in China, he
knows what has gone on since 1949 and I am sure that he knows that the Olympic
Committee made a colossal mistake in giving the Olympic Games to China. The
question is what does he do? I would hope, I know that Australians are crazy
about sports like Canadians and I would hope that at the very least your Prime
Minister would publicly and privately, in Mandarin if you like, tell the
Government of China they must stop killing people on the streets of Lhasa, they
must stop saying things that are absolutely untrue about Tibet and the Dalai
Lama. He is a highly respected person, he is an honorary citizen of Canada and
your Prime Minister knows as well as anybody that the Dalai Lama did not
instigate these protests. The protests were brought on, as most people know, by
the constant oppression by the Chinese Government since '59. where, George, by
the way, about half the men in Tibet were literally worked to death during the
'60s by the government of China. It's a terrible record there.
GEORGE NEGUS: Sticking with Kevin Rudd's potential role in
this, as a Mandarin speaker, I think it's absolutely reasonable to suggest he is
the only Western leader who speaks Mandarin, gives him, I would have thought, a
remarkable and unique opportunity to play a specific role in this.
DAVID KILGOUR: Of course, and he also wrote his paper in
his honours degree about Wei Jingsheng the democrat, and he studied Mandarin in
Taiwan, he knows about the problems of Taiwan faced with, what is it the 1,700
missiles across the strait from China. He knows all about the nuances of this
issue and I think he also knows that if you stand up to the Government of China,
certainly in the experience of Canada and I think many other countries, they
will back down. And all we are asking them to do is to fulfil the pledges they
made when they got the Olympic Games, to improve human rights in their country
and that includes not killing protesters on the streets of the capital of
Tibet.
GEORGE NEGUS: Kevin Rudd is actually visiting
Beijing on 10 April, I think it is, for four days. If you were in his shoes in
that situation, what would you be telling them right now, with the outrage that
the rest of the world is expressing?
DAVID KILGOUR: Exactly
I would be telling them about the outrage that the rest of the world is feeling.
But it is not just Tibet, it is Burma, it is Darfur in Sudan, it's the human
rights workers in China, is the Falun Gong community, which is, my report found,
literally being killed by the Government of China, having their organs being
taken from them and sold to foreigners. There is a whole range of human rights
abuses that I would hope your Prime Minister would say to Mr Hu Jintao that the
West and all of the human rights-respecting world is not prepared to put up
with. And you probably noticed today that the Europeans are talking about
boycotting the opening ceremony of the Games. I would hope that your Prime
Minister would suggest that this could go beyond the opening and it might become
a wider kind of boycott.
GEORGE NEGUS: Yep, you mention the
word 'boycott', a lot of other people are in the world at the moment. Are you
pro- or anti-boycott, because the IOC are adamant that they don't believe a
boycott will do anything to assist the human rights cause, in fact it could be
detrimental. What is your position?
DAVID KILGOUR: Well, I
think the IOC is naive with a capital 'N'. The Games are primarily a political
expression in terms of what China is trying to do in its coming-out party. I
feel, my heart goes out to the athletes. They have worked, many of them for
eight years, and I think, I hope there's a way that Government of China can be
persuaded by people like your Prime Minister to enforce its promises that they
have to do a lot better between now and August than they are doing right now in
Tibet and other places in the world.
GEORGE NEGUS: Is it
the case that the Chinese really couldn't care less? I mean, they're going to
snub anything that is attempted by anybody, including Kevin Rudd, that they are,
if you like, so politically and economically arrogant at the moment that they
really don't care what the rest of the world thinks, regardless of the Olympics?
DAVID KILGOUR: Well, they do and I can give you an example
of that, George. About three months ago the Chinese Medical Association agreed
with the World Medical Association that no more foreigners would be allowed to
go over and take organs from Falun Gong and others in China. And one of their
spokespersons admitted that they were afraid of a boycott of the Games and that
is basically why they were doing this. So in fact they are extremely nervous at
this point, all despite what's happening in Tibet, that the rest of the world
will put their foot down and boycott the Games. I hope does not come to that,
but this cannot continue, the Government of China cannot continue to behave the
way it's behaving now in Tibet and elsewhere.
GEORGE NEGUS:
So it looks like we have got a fairly torrid five or six months ahead of us?
DAVID KILGOUR: Yeah, indeed they do, yes.
GEORGE NEGUS: China of course will argue that they have
made progress on human rights generally internally and externally for instance
in Darfur, they would argue that they are actually on the right path.
DAVID KILGOUR: All of the independent observers that have
looked at human rights say that human rights have been getting worse in China,
certainly as the Olympic Games get closer. They have not been getting better. I
think it is absolutely clear that human rights have been getting worse in China
and I might say in Darfur, Sudan and Burma. Well, you know all the places where
they have their foot in the door where they behave with terrible responsibility.
GEORGE NEGUS: David Kilgour, thanks very much, and this
issue is not going to go away so I wouldn't be surprised if we talk to you again
in the next six months.
DAVID KILGOUR: Good to be here.
GEORGE NEGUS: International human rights lawyer David
Kilgour. A reminder that two weeks ago, we requested an interview with the
Chinese Ambassador to Australia, but were told that he was out of the country.
Hopefully, we'll be granted that interview when he returns to Australia.
Credits
Interview Producer/Researcher
JANE WORTHINGTON
Editor
STEPHEN HARROP